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HomeMy WebLinkAbout01/27/1998 Special Council Meeting MinutesII. III. IV. JANUARY 27, 1998 Marana Town Hall, January 27, 1998 CALL TO ORDER By Vice Mayor Sutton at 6:06 P.M. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE Led by Vice Mayor Sutton COUNCIL Ora Harn Bobby Sutton, Jr. Ed Honea Herb Kal Sherry Millner Michael Reuwsaat Roxanne Ziegler Mayor, excused Vice Mayor Council Member Council Member Council Member Council Member, excused Council Member STAFF Hurvie Davis Jocelyn Entz Dan Hochuli Sandy Groseclose Jane Johnson Roy Cuaron Dave Smith Brad DeSpain Joel Svoboda Jerry Flannery Dave After Steve Nygren Town Manager Asst. to Town Manager Town Attorney Town Clerk Human Resources Director Finance Director Chief of Police Utilities Director Chief Building Official Planning Director/Annexing Town Engineer Architect Consultant APPROVAL OFAGENDA A motion was made by Ed Honea, seconded by Herb Kal, to approve the agenda, as written. The motion carried 5/0. ORDER OF BUSINESS Munici_oal Facility Sitine_ - Presentations By Owners and Discussion of Alternatives Vice Mayor Sutton: The ground rules for tonight are that we will draw out of a hat, or whatever is available, to determine what order the presenters will present. They will have 15 minutes for each presentation and then it will be opened up to Council questions. JANUARY 27 1998 Hurvie Davis: As you know, with continued growth in our community, the Town has had to grow in many areas, especially staff, to meet the needs of our community. Some staff is in Town Hall and some is in the Development Center and some is in the Police Department modular building. We are at the point where we do not have any room for expansion as we continue to grow. It is very critical that we have a well planned Municipal Facility. The facility should be more than just a government office that is open from 8:00 - 5:00. We have established a facilities planning committee made up of staff, headed by Mr. Atler. They have been doing an excellent job at advancing this issue. Originally, we had a number of sites. On December 2nd, Mayor and Council narrowed it down to four potential sites. Tonight's meeting has been called to give the parties interested in providing land to the Town for the Municipal Complex an opportunity to make presentations to the Council. There are three possible options for the Council this evening. One would be to select a location which the Council feels best suits the needs of the Town of Marana. Second would be to select two locations for further discussion. Third would be to defer the decision until the Council collects more information. Dave After: I believe there are only two proposers present, this evening. Mr. Wexler will be presenting the Lon Adams/Barnett property. Mr. Terry Klipp will be presenting Tangerine Road #1, located north of Tangerine Road just east of the freeway. The other two properties, which are not represented this evening, are the Hum property, off of Grier near the school, and the Tangerine Road #2 property, located on the south side of Tangerine near Breakers. There is a bowl with all four names and since there is only two presenters here, we will draw until one of those two comes up and that one will go first. Ed Cook drew the names, Greg Wexler will present first. Greg Wexler, S.V.P. Property: We hold this property as several different partnerships, primarily the Reyher Partnership, 1261 West Payton Place. Briefly, about ten years ago we built the present Town Hall and we donated the land that the Town Hall is on. We met with a format similar to tonight and set forth the proposal. Ora Harn was the only one on the Council, at that time, that is on the Council today. Today, we are interested in pursuing that partnership and we hope that you will consider staying here. We have reassessed our proposal from last time. Some maps have been included in our exhibit. Presently the Town Hall is located on about an acre of land which we donated last time. We wish to expand that donation to give another 3 acres of land. We are under the impression that you want another 20 acres, so there would be an additional 17 acres which we would like to sell, on a series of rolling options, at $20,000 per acre. The price would increase annually. Additionally, we are in a position, if you wish, to build you a new Municipal Facility. You could tell us what you want and we would develop it and lease it back to you. This is what we did for you last time. We would look forward to building you a very nice facility, something you would be proud of. We would expect you to stay there for a reasonable period of time and it would be set up on a lease that the Town would sign. We could build this over the next few years or right now. Or, if you wish to purchase the land from us, we would sell it to you. The initial purchase would be a minimum of 3 acres, which would be $60,000. At that time, we would give you MINUTES OF SPECIAL COUNCIL MEETING MARANA TOWN COUNCIL JANUARY 27, 1998 an additional 3 acres, which equates to 6 acres at $10,000 per acre. There after, it would be $20,000 per acre. If you wish to lease the land from us, we will do that. If you need more than 20 acres, we will sell you more. If you need less than 20 acres, we will sell you less. We have been in town for some time and we have worked with the community and the Council. We are one of the main developers of Continental Ranch. We have a big investment in this community and wish to continue that partnership. One of the maps provided shows our other holdings in the area. We have 100 acres surrounding Town Hall. We would plan with the Planning and Engineering Department to build a partnership in this land. We have an option on Tommy Clark's farm across the street. We did own that at one time and we renegotiated it when the market fell apart. We still have an option to purchase that, which is in effect. We also own 154 acres at the corner of Sandario and BarnetFMoore and Sandario. Now that the bank protection is being put in place, we see the area changing in complexion. The drainage system could be developed into a golf course, like at Continental Ranch. The other map is what we envision to happen around the Town Hall. With the park where it is, we envision the present Town Hall to be an auxiliary building, like Fine Arts. We would envision an open area adjacent to the new Town Hall that would tie into the park and create a plaza for different functions. Additionally, we see other future governmental uses, either owned by you or leased from us. We would then take the 100 acres around it and develop a community and pedestrian network that would tie together. We would also look at the area to the south, the Clark farm, and tie it into a whole community. We feel the Town Hall is in a very good location. The cost of development would not be that expensive because the infrastructure is already here, at least within a very short distance. It would cost $200,000 to bring in the sewer line. There would be participation by adjacent property owners, including ourselves, so the Town would not be looking at the entire cost. There is already water lines, roads, parks, post office and library adjacent to the Town Hall. This is a very good area. As far as the other sites, primarily those on Tangerine, we have passed out some photographs for comparison. There is a tremendous amount of hydrology work necessary for that area. It does not have any other community infrastructure, like in the Lon Adams/Barnett area. You would be starting out in a virgin area. The advantage you have in the Lon Adams/Barnett area is that you already have the facilities mentioned a moment ago and we would be a big participant in seeing the area develop. If you have any questions I am open for them now, or later in the meeting. Herb Kai: One of the Council's concerns is visibility and accessibility of the present site. Do you have any envisions or plans where we could improve the access to the Town Hall? Greg Wexler: What we have always thought is that at some point in time we would tie in the Town Hall with a network of read systems, making the roads boulevards, and have the Town Hall as the focal point. We believe the access is really pretty good. The interchange is at Marana and the interstate. As these larger properties come on line, there will be requirements to the developer to enlarge these roads. We will be involved in enlarging these roads as we start to develop. Or, if the Town does it, maybe there would be a credit that they would get so when we come back in later, we could reimburse the Town. Right now, 3 MINUTES OF SPECIAL COUNCIL MEETING MARANA TOWN COUNCIL JANUARY 27, 1998 from the Marana interchange you come down Sandario to Moore Road to here. The other access is off of the frontage road and down Barnett to here. As far as visibility, we envisioned developing some type of architectural theme, a monument or steeple, or a four or five story office building visible from various points in Marana. I can't put you right on the freeway, it is not possible. Ed Honea: Nice presentation. I am concerned about one of the requirements that you want to put on this facility. I, personally, am not interested in leasing. The Town has appropriated money to buy a piece of property, enough that we could buy your property outright. What I am concerned with is the same thing that was a problem with this facility. The twenty-five year guarantee that the Town Hall would be located on this site. I have a problem with that. If we buy your site, and ten to twelve years from now, we expand to 100,000 people and we decide to split to provide services to the people, we would not be able to with a twenty-five year guarantee. If we need to expand, we should be able to turn the building over to a specific area of operation and move the municipality to a more functional location to serve the people. Greg Wexler: If I can respond to that, forget that part. Ed Honea: Thank you. That was my main problem. The only other thing is the infrastructure requirements. You show a loop roadway through the property. Greg Wexler: This is a conceptual idea, not a commitment for you or I. Because it is one large 100 acre piece, you need to start developing a circulation pattern. We thought a loop would be a good idea. Ed Honea: What I am getting at is that you have a good piece of property and a good location, but I don't want to fie the hands of the Town, or Councils after us. If we buy the property, wherever it may be, we have the advantage to work with the development community around it to tie it in and make it feasible. As far as an architectural theme and requirements, we will build a facility that we are proud of. I really do not want an outside entity dictating the architectural theme of our facility. The Council and staff should dictate that. If we say, O.K. we will buy your property, we should have the right to do whatever we want with the property, without any strings attached. Technically, we could build a fairly large facility and put it on an industrial septic for 10 years, if we needed to. So, I don't want anything saying we guarantee to put some kind of infrastructure, loop or architecture in. I don't like agreements where we obligate ourselves to do things down the road. We want to do things to be advantageous to the people. I think the concept is pretty good and you did a good job on your presentation, but I don't want to see a bunch of strings attached. Greg Wexler: I can understand what you are talking about. Where we were going was to have a partnership with the Town of Marana in developing an overall theme. Not just for the Town area but for the whole community, the Rancho Marana Plan. We were not looking to tie strings, we were looking to have a participation with the Planning Department and the Council to have a good circulation plan. We could work in unison to have something to be proud of in the future. We are not trying to tie it to architecture. That was just a concept 4 to get your appetite started. Forget about the loop read, we just think that our expertise would be advantageous to you. Even if it is just input, we could give you some good ideas. Having us involved in the development and design would help make this area that much more attractive for other businesses and residential development. Ed Honea: I agree. I just don't want to give Ranch Holdings veto power over what the Town does if we buy the property. I agree that if we buy your property, we should work together, it would be beneficial to both parties. I am just trying to eliminate an outside veto power over property owned by the Town. Greg Wexler: When we put up the funds to build this Town Hall, we did not get involved at all in the design. I think what we are all looking for is an end product that we will all be proud of. One of the advantages to dealing with us is we are developers and we have a track record here. We have other properties here, we will be here long term, and I think we have done a pretty good job in Town, so far. Roxanne Ziegler: I want to remind everyone that this is not a debate, it is a study session. This Town Hall, wherever it is placed, will not be dictated by seven people on this Council. I want that to be a very strong point. This Town Hall will be paid for by the taxpayers of Marana and will not be dictated by anyone sitting up here. It is the people who are going to live in this town. It is going to be what makes sense for this town and what is right for this town. As for your development, if you look back into the books you passed out, I think that we need the guidance on what we are going to do. I have asked it of the gentlemen presenting after you. I don't think any of us up here are real estate developers or architectural. I don't think we have ever taken on such a large task as building a Town Hall. I find it very intimidating because I don't know a lot about it, I am learning. I think we would appreciate any help your company, or the gentlemen who are about to present, could give us. However, as Council member Honea said, I don't feel that our hands should be tied. It is the people's money and the Town's money and we will do what is right with it. Sherry Millner: I am concerned about how close the houses you plan to build will be to Town Hall. You are going to build a whole community and I am concerned that there will not be any room to grow and Town Hall will be sitting amongst a bunch of houses. Looking at other cities, wherever the Town Hall is, businesses grow from there. How far are we going to have? You talked about a golf course, I would rather see businesses rather than a golf course and houses. This town needs business. Greg Wexler: In our master plan for Rancho Marana, we have approximately 1200 meters (1/4 mile) and about 40 or 50 acres surrounding Town Hall on three corners. You are looking at quite a reasonable area to be developed, considering you are on one acre, now. In a design/planning session with Town staff, we would take a look at some of that criteria to make sure there is enough land reserved for expansion for Town Hall or other governmental uses. It is our intent to see this area developed just like yours. We have a large investment here and we have had most of these lands for over ten to twelve years. We are already in Marana in a big way and we wish to expand our horizons. If the bank protection had been in, we would have already started to develop this area. When we bought the property, we thought that was going to go in about three years. It has been about twelve to fifteen years now. We have reserved the 20 acre piece, and about another 30 acres, for commercial and professional uses. Then we have a loop road with retail/specialty shops and then a multi-family transition into detached housing, like Continental Ranch. On the south portion, we would envision keeping the intersection as the Town center. Because of the drainage off of the Tortolita Mountains, we have to handle it as it comes underneath the freeway, it comes through our property. As that happens, we decided to design a golf course that would act as detention basins to hold all of the water. We would be looking at a pretty substantial piece of land so you would have another 150 acres here and another 50 or so acres of park. There is a lot of extra land. The other partner of our property is the developer of Gray Hawk, a 2400 acre community in Scottsdale. It has two golf courses and a third under construction. Roxanne Ziegler: Is there any thing else you could do, besides a golf course, to retain the water from the flow off the Tortolitas? Greg Wexler: It could be designed as a park, dirt or gravel. It is a pretty substantial amount of water. Roxanne Ziegler: Dave was telling me about the water coming down on the other side of the freeway. I don't know that we want another golf course. Greg Wexler: Golf courses, like the one we built in Continental Ranch, are used for several things besides recreation. They bring income to the Town, they provide a base for other recreational businesses and it would be our detention basin. Our properties are all agricultural lands with quite a few grandfather water rights. We would actually be using less water if we went with a golf course and retired the agricultural land. We also have effluent in the irrigation channels. It is possible that this property could use effluent or CAP water. We would just have to work something out with the Cortaro Water User's Association. Terry Klipp, President of Terramar Properties, 220 East River Road, #105: I have given you a handout which summarizes the proposal that we made to Dave Atler in December. The property at Tangerine Road and 1-10 originally consisted of 200 acres which I sold to Mr. Hayt and Mr. Harper twenty-five years ago. Twenty years ago, we were probably the first annexation into the new Town of Uarana. We have been in Marana ever since, We received the request for proposal from Dave Atler and the planning committee. Prior to making this proposal, I met with Dave to understand what the Town's desires were for a site. The basic thing I came away from that first meeting with was that the Town was looking for a site that could serve the future of Marana. Marana having annexed areas to the south and now is a community that spans quite a wide area is why we decided to go ahead and make a proposal. Tangerine Road and 1-10 is an area that, in the next five to ten years, will grow rapidly. When we were talking about the site in the first meeting, there was discussion about it being an area that would be very centric for the Town facilities, in twenty-five years from now. The proposal is not to sell the Town property, is to donate 20 acres to the Town. The Town pumhased right-of-way through the property to realign Tangerine Road. The site initially proposed was the site at the west boundary of the 20 acres. After talking to Dave and some of the staff, it was felt that a site that far west might have some access problems down the road due to ramping on Tangerine Road, We moved the site over far enough so if there ever was ramping on the read, access to the site would not be a problem. The entire acreage on the north portion of Tangerine Road is about 145 acres. The site itself, represented here, is about 20 acres. It has not been surveyed yet, but the east and west boundary can be fixed and the north boundary fluctuated to determine exactly 20 acres. Again, that 20 acres would be donated to the Town. There is some reason and motivation on our part for this donation. With the Town building in that area, it was mentioned in the first meeting, it would create economic development in the area. By building a facility in this area, it will require bringing water and sewer, and other utilities, to the property. As a result of that, there are other properties in the area that development could be started to create the economic development the Town is interested in creating. Additionally, there is other land available. It was felt that 20 acres was going to be needed for the complex itself. Possibly, there may be a need for a park. There is probably another 125 acres available for purchase, after the 20 acres is donated. There was a study done for the Town for the cost of infrastructure to serve these properties. David Evans and Associates, in Tucson, did that study. I have looked at it and the estimates anticipated water and sewer going about 4 miles up to Dove Mountain Road. The sewer, in particular, through a pressure main for 4 miles, had a substantial cost, over $600,000. It is our feeling that it is not advantageous to the Town to spend that kind of money on sewer. Also, because of all of the State land north of Tangerine Road, it is not benefiting anyone except the site being built and maybe some sites south of Tangerine Road. Pima County frowns on pressure mains and pump stations, because of maintenance. Water won't be as big a problem because gravity won't play as big a part. We have talked to other property owners in the area and a 208 permit has been approved for a sewage facility up on the Doerken property. Discussions have also taken place for a proposed loop roadway to connect Tangerine with Grief and possibly up to Marana Road. The Town, I think is interested in this happening because of ADOT's movement to make the frontage roads one way. The loop road idea to connect Tangerine Road with the other properties between the freeway and railroad right-of-way and the CAP canal would be advantageous to the Town, as far as bringing economic growth east of the freeway. As far as future planning, we would be happy to work with you. We have a lot of development background in Tucson, we have been developing real estate in Tucson for over twenty-five years. We have probably developed 80-85 residential subdivisions in that time and we have worked with all of the major engineering firms in town. We would be more than happy to work with the Town to plan the area for the complex at Tangerine Road, and the surrounding property owners would be willing to offset a lot of the costs that the Town would incur to extend utilities to the property. I am confident that once the benefits of the sewer and roadway on that loop road are presented to these people, they would see the benefit of offsetting that cost. It could be done through some type of an improvement district, or something else. The sewer is about a mile and a half away from the property on the side, as opposed to four miles to the 7 east. The cost to run a gravity main for that distance would be somewhere between $160,000 and $200,000, which makes a lot more sense than $600,000 to go east. I would be happy to answer any questions you might have. Ed Honea: This question is for Mr. Atler. I am trying to put a dollar amount on this property. To take this property out of the sheet plain and make it usable property, have you done any preliminaries on what the cost might be? Dave After: We have not done that yet. It is a difficult task to do not knowing what the site planning is going to be. The concept we have discussed at the facility planning committee is what the Council has discussed, getting even more property and incorporating a park into it. We would put in a detention/retention facility within the park and that would reduce or eliminate the sheet flow impact on the rest of the property. It would be integrated into the site plan and depend on how much land you get and the site configuration. Ed Honea: I also have a question for Brad DeSpain. How much would it cost to drill a well or run a six inch main a mile and a half up to this property and would it need a lift? Brad DeSpain: If you drilled a well on site, you probably wouldn't have to worry about a lift and you are looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of $150,000- $200,000 for a minimum type well and storage facility with the booster pumps. To extend a main, you will probably be looking at about $38 per foot for an eight or twelve inch main. As it would stand now, from Adonis estates, it is only a six inch main and you would have to upgrade the storage and booster facilities at Amole Circle. Roxanne Ziegler: Brad, is Adonis going to tap into La Mirage's pump. Is that at the future sewage plant? Brad DeSpain: It is my understanding that is the 208 site for the sewage treatment package plant. I presume that is where it would take place. Mr. After can probably comment on sewer more than I can. With water, La Mirage will be required to develop two wells with storage, pressure, etc. There will be an interconnection between Adonis and La Mirage for backup both ways. Roxanne Ziegler: What about the water down to this new site? Brad DeSpain: It would have to be extended from La Mirage to the new site. From the way it stands, now, it would have to come back to Amole Circle and put a main in there, all the way up to the site. Roxanne Ziegler: Hurvie, is this proposed roadway the one we were talking about, to get another access, ingress/egress, for the La Mirage site? Weren't we talking about another road connecting with Tangerine? I am trying to wrap this all in to how it could benefit Doerken's property, should we choose to go forward with it. Or visa-versa, how his property could benefit Town Hall. Hurvie Davis: Conceptually, I believe that roadway is one that we are considering to come down to Tangerine Road. It would serve a number of developments. We would have the problem that we have been talking about with the La Mirage project, the access of Grief Road, and we are looking for an alternate way to serve that. There are a number of property owners involved and they would all have to agree to jointly find a way to fund that. Hopefully, all of the property owners would agree to dedicate right-of-way and be a participant in the project. Mr. Afier may have something to add to that. Dave After: I just want to point out that this includes the master transportation plan. Sherry Millner: Could you tell me what your plans are for the property around the proposed facility? Is it going to be used for houses? Terry Klipp: At this point, there really are no plans. I would think that immediately adjacent to the property would be primarily commercial in orientation. Again, 145 acres is a lot of property. Tangerine Road/Frontage is much more valuable for commercial/industrial development than for residential development. I think that is another advantage to this site, it is a virgin site and we would be happy to sit with the Town and planning staff to come up with a plan that would be beneficial to both the Town and the property, if this loop road is built, it opens up a great deal of property for developmenL It seems to make all the sense in the world for the future Marana. That is what we feel the advantage is to this site. Today, it may not make sense to have a facility there, but after talking to Dave Atler, we are looking at about two years out anyway. By then, I think development will have occurred there. Vice Mayor Sutton: Jerry Flannery, what is the current zoning on the whole 145 acres there? Jerry Flannery: That area is in an old Town zone, believe a portion of it is rezoned. Brad DeSpain: Something I should add is that water is very scarce in that area. After you pass Tangerine, where it goes under the railroad tracks back to the east, several people have tried the old poultry farm and it is inadequate. There is some closer to the railroad. The closer you get to the foothills, the harder it is to find water. It would not be an easy task to find water on that side, it would be safer to bring it in. Dave After: We are very fortunate to have two architects in the room. I was asking if there was a range or estimate that they would work up, as architects, to answer your question earlier, Councilman Honea. They said about 15%-25% of the building cost. Again, what we are looking at is incorporating it into the cost of the park. Depending on the size of the building and the expense you put into the building, it will change the number significantly. If you take 25% of the high end, we are talking about 30,000 square feet for the first phase, at about $100 per square foot it equals $3,000,000. A quarter of that is $750,000. It is quite a bit, but we are talking about the overall site grading, which includes the park concept. That will get you dose to what you were looking for. Herb Kal: Mr. Klipp, could you identify the Town property that was acquired, the Palkowitsh Property? Would that be to the south and the west of your area? How big is that parcel? Terry Klipp: I think it is an acre, maybe less. The larger area, east of the Palkowitsh Property, is approximately thirteen acres, so I would guess the Palkowitsh Property is less than an acre. Vice Mayor Sutton: I know we have some options before us. My feeling is that, with Mayor Harn being away on business for the Health Center and Councilman Reuwsaat not being here, maybe we should take no action at this time. This is not going to be an easy, or quick, decision. I will leave it to the Council's pleasure, I just suggest no action at this time because Mayor Harn and Councilman Reuwsaat are not here. Maybe Council would want to give direction to staff. I still need to absorb it all, now that we have a little better picture to look at. I would like some more time to meet with people to discuss it some more. Sherry Millner: Under the recommendation, it says maybe we can get down to two properties. Since we only had two different companies feel it was important enough to come before us tonight, we have our two. Vice Mayor Sutton: You are correct. Although we have a quorum and we can act as a body, Ora had some interest in the Hum property. I know they are not here to present, but I don't know if that crosses them off for her. It does for me. Roxanne Ziegler: Again, the Town Code states that if we have a quorum, we can act. I am not in favor of putting it off for the other two council members. I know this is a very important and difficult decision. I agree with Council member Millner that two groups of people showed up to give presentations and I think that is very important. I understand there are other commitments by other council members but this meeting has been advertised for a couple of weeks and I feel we should go forward with the two properties that were presented tonight. Vice Mayor Sutton: Does staff have any comments? Hurvie Davis: We are currently checking the agenda, and it basically says presentations by owners and discussion of alternatives without action being identified. Mr. Hochuli's opinion has been that if it doesn't identify action, the Council is unable to take action. I will defer to Mr. Hochuli on that. I would also say that if the Council does not feel comfortable making a decision on this tonight, it shouldn't. Does the Council want staff to go back and do more research and analysis? Mayor Harn indicated in her State of the Town Address that this is a decision that should involve the community. Dan Hochuli: Since the agenda appears to be specific in its designation of presentation and discussion, I would advise against Council action this evening. 10 Roxanne Ziegler: I was unable to attend the State of the Town Address but I did read the message and I was some what surprised that Mayor Ham mentioned community input and that the study session was tonight. When I got my copy of the speech she was going to make, she did mention that and i thought to myself, when are we going to give the Town community input? Have we gone and said, "O.K., community, here's the sites. What is your input?" Or, were we going to get them down to two? We short listed to eight, down to three, back to four, now we are at four. I don't know when she anticipated having community input. Although, I think that may be we are getting a little closer to that if we get it down to these two, tonight. May be that is what she felt, that now is the time to get the input from the community. I have looked at this, as have several people, for several months. I would like to move off center and get something going. We could sit here and argue about how much it is going to cost, and I don't think anyone in this room can tell me, right now. We could have five more meetings and talk about that for five more hours. Again, like what Councilwoman Millner said, I would like to make a motion (even if it goes against our attorney's best interest for the Town). It does say motion is Council's pleasure. My pleasure is to make a motion. A motion was made by Roxanne Ziegler, no second, to go ahead and move forward with the two presentations given, tonight. Motion failed. Vice Mayor Sutton: Roxanne, the initial study that gave us those five circles was from the firm that did the study for us and from public input. I remember the public being involved with the firm and staff that was doing that, to find the center of town and what was applicable. Dave After: The CSC counts were under the direction of the Planning department. They generated the drawing, with the exception of the gray circles you see. The gray circles identify the Town geographic center, population center, based on planning area. The facility planning committee, over several months, identified what areas should be further explored. As far as the public participation, it has been involved in the general plan advisory committee, as well as the possibility of the open discussion during a number of Council meetings over the last year. Roxanne Ziegler: I was on the Council at that time. Are you suggesting, Vice Mayor, that public input (I guess I am thinking of something else) has been done, in that these are the five that they came up with? Vice Mayor Sutton: No. I agree with you that now is the time to bring the public back in. Now that we have done work to get it down to what is feasible for the Town, and I believe that there needs to be a lot more. That is why I am a little concerned about making a motion now. I want the public to make the final decision. Roxanne Ziegler: Right! May be I am not making myself clear. If we choose these two sites, then is it appropriate to have the community come in? Just like going on a short list, we are down to two and it is time for community input. Vice Mayor Sutton: What I would suggest is that we give direction as to what we want to happen next, We don't have to make a motion to choose these two. If we know we are moving forward, we can direct staff to work with the two we have. We got a lot tonight and there is a lot to absorb. The road from Tangerine throws us into another project that we are having a problem on. There is a lot more to consider now. Both of them have their definite values for the Town. I would be more comfortable to direct staff to get a public committee together than having a public hearing, no one comes to the public hearings. Mike Hein: I think, from working with Mayor Ham on her speech and talking to some of the Council members, the idea of public participation was forward thinking, as far as what to do from this point fodh, whether it is four properties or two properties. May be go out into the community, hold Town Hall meetings in Continental Ranch, Adonis and some of the other neighborhoods. Then we could talk about some common issues in general, one of which includes the Town Hall siting, to kind of gauge how salient the issue is. We would be able to see if there is strong community preferences or input that the Council and facility planning committee did not think of in their site selection process. We should really factor that into the evaluation for determination of the final site. Vice Mayor Sutton: My feeling is that two people felt it was important enough to show up tonight and present. In my mind I have my two short list. Sherry Millner: If we still include those other two properties, and they did not show up, what have we accomplished tonight? We just got a little bit more information. Ed Honea: I think that if two corporate entities show up and make presentations and the other two don't bother to show up, on a project this big, that we should just take the other two out of the running. I think we should make these two the short list, I don't know if we can give direction to staff to do a little more detail, I would be interested in some more precise information on the flooding and about how much it would cost, on these two sites. Then we can have a couple public hearings, a couple Town Halls. One at Dove Mountain, one at Continental Ranch and one here, so people can come in and have their say. At least then we would have some facts and figures to show them. Herb Kai: In all fairness to Mr. Hum, his position was if the Council so decided to choose his parcel, he needed to know if the Council was interested and how many acres the Council wanted to buy. It really wasn't lack of interest on his part, he just felt that he did not have any plans that he could show for his conceptual buildings, ideas, etc. If the Council was interested, he just hoped that we would get back with him. That is just to clear the record. I feel that we do have two good sites here and I honestly think we need some more refinement and some more definite numbers. Water, Brad's projection of building a well, should be investigated more closely. Sewer, whether it is septic systems or an extension to the regional treatment plant, needs to have some numbers presented. I would like to see staff define some numbers to the two sites and then move forward. We need to look at Mr, Wexler's $200,000 number for the sewer connection. Is that something we can hang our hat on? 12 VI. Dave After: Yes. I think that looks reasonable. There is a question mark to that, also, when there is property between here and the connecting point near Grier and Sandario. Roxanne Ziegler: Thank you for helping me clarify what I was trying to say. I certainly understand what the Mayor was going with, I read her speech. If we open it up to the community for all of the sites, we are going back a year and we are going to have so much negotiation and debate. We have really made a lot of head way to where we are now. I understand what Ore wants to do, but I think we should just take the two sites now, they are both good sites and they both have their advantages and disadvantages. We can get more information just on these two sites, and come back whenever it is appropriate, and get closer to the decision. I apologize for drop kicking our attorney's suggestion, but he is used to me being like that. Hurvie Davis: I think the decision, as we move forward on this, is that we are going to have to address and determine a planning horizon with our facility. I don't think that our planning committee is at that stage, right now. We may have to stage that in terms of space needs, we have to project the growth of the community and the growth of staff and the growth of services to the community in perhaps five year increments. The basic ingredient, when looking at a municipal complex, is how many square feet will you need? Secondly, we want to look at that complex, and the sites we are looking at, to see if the two accommodate each other for the theme that we are talking about for the municipal complex. Then you have to look at the difference in cost, meaning the cost of infrastructure for each site. Infrastructure is where the cost is going to fluctuate, not in the complex itself. What is the size of the facility we need, the type of facility, does it allow for the expansion we want over time and the complimentary uses of the facility. It should be a place that people want to go, not just to conduct business with their government, but to do other types of activities (arts, amphitheaters, museums, etc.). These are the kind of decisions that we will have to make when we select one of the two sites. Staff has heard a lot of discussion and concerns of the Council, this evening, so I don't think we need a vote to tell us what to do. That should make Mr. Hochuli feel better. Vice Mayor Sutton: I want to commend both of the representatives, tonight. Not only for giving the presentations in language we can understand, but for using their property to not only benefit their property, but the Town as a whole. They both showed some excellent ways of attacking some problems that we are dealing with anyway. I know dealing with a municipality, dealing with five or seven different people, and not being able to close a deal like you are used to in a regular environment is not easy. It is a very important decision for us and it is something that I am just going to be a voice for. it is not going to be my decision, it is going to be enough people telling me where it should be. Thank you. Staff, I think direction is very clear as to where we need to go with this. A motion was made by Ed Honea, seconded by Roxanne Ziegler, to adjourn. The motion passed 5/0. Meeting adjourned at 7:30 P.M. CERTIFICATION I hereby certify that the foregoing minutes are the true and correct minutes of the Marana Town Council held on January 27, 1998. I further certify that a quorum was present. S/C RK t4